So Progeny Sysem is pretty great for those who like to roll fresh characer of min-max for certain classes.
I feel a little left out though. I really enjoy sticking with one character and kind of establishing myself.
I propose a system to work along side the Progeny System... let's call it the err... Veteran System.
After hitting level cap you can choose to start back at level 1 with another applicable class. No extra stats or perks from the Progeny System, but you now have the ability to switch classes at your home/safe haven/etc. This way, those of us who want to stick with one character can keep making progress.
Yes, I totally ripped this off from FFXI.
Yeah I don't want class swapping, ever.
Instead, I'd propose a system for people who don't want to start over, like an extremely long exp bar that you can fill up. (Say its the same amount of exp it takes to 1-50x2). And once you fill it up, you can get the same benefits as someone who chose to use the Progeny system.
Do you keep your name? Do you keep all non class related skills? Like swimming, fishing, alcohol tolerance? Can you repeat quests that aren't class specific? Do you gain exp any faster or slower? Do NPC's still know you, has your reputation with them changed at all?
I think it's an interesting idea because I'm retired now. Starting a new "class" in my real life and I'm back to level 1 (so to say) but nothing else other than the new skills I have have changed. So I can get behind this idea and I kinda like it.
I'm still me, I'm just leveling up a new class.
Kittik said:Do you keep your name? Do you keep all none class related skills? Like swimming, fishing, alcohol tolerance? Can you repeat quests that aren't class specific? Do you gain exp any faster or slower? Do NPC's still know you, has your reputation with them changed at all?
I think it's an interesting idea because I'm retired now. Starting a new "class" in my real life and I'm back to level 1 (so to say) but nothing else other than the new skills I have have changed. So I can get behind this idea and I kinda like it.
I'm still me, I'm just leveling up a new class.
In my mind, it would work the same as FFXI. You are the same character, no name change or anything involved. You are just back at level 1. Non class skills stay (such as crafting), quest don't renew or anything. So In a way it might be even tougher to level up this time around (though in FFXI hardly any EXP came from quest).
Dhampir's Idea is a good on as well. The main thing is I want something to keep working towards on a single character.
Can I have your extra character slots? ;p
I will have one of every single class, will never use the Progeny system, hopefully can tie them together via Last name or something.
That is one reason I would love a battlenet type Real Friend ID or ESO-ish where I have an "account name" that people can friend and they will know it's me no matter what character I am on.
Seems like that would be WAY easier than multi classing one toon.
I don't like the @insertname that ESO uses, but no matter what toon I am on if someone does @insertname its me no matter what character I am on.
I've played FFXIV (14) and I have to say that the class system was hands down the most well developed I have ever played in any MMORPG. That game is designed around fast paced combat that keeps people playing because its exciting (especially with the music on boss fights!)
With that said, PRotF is not going that route. PRotF is about putting in effort to make you feel like you've "earned" you digital reward. This will be a subscription based game for as long as they can keep it that way and creating different characters is a simple way for an MMO to retain paying customers. There will be No Drop/No Trade items that will be unique to specific classes and races as well as items revealed later in the game that will make some people want to play a different class/race. The player retention change that I am looking forward to will be the new races and classes. The one I hate that will inevitably come after the new race/classes will be the race/class restriction changes that will make some people start new characters as well. Another one that actually made me quit WoW was the FotM patching that Blizzard intentionally did to keep players playing different characters (which was only capable after leveling became less dificult and there were no easy way to promote class change solely with gear). The time sinks of obtaining the no drop/no trade/raid gear on a completely different character is where the money is at... allowing a single character to obtain any class specific gear would seriously trivialize a lot of gear which will pretty much be the primary thing that differentiates your character in this game (maybe the epic skills depending on how difficult they will be to obtain). If I could do my epic quest as a shaman, and pick up some ranger loot because there were none in the group/raid and then have lvl 50 no trade ranger loot as a lvl 12 would be silly (even if it is scaled down). It worked in FFXIV because the gameplay was based on using fun combat mechanics and getting decent gear easily... not competing with 12 other people to grind the same goblin in a tent in the woods for months for an earring that has a 14% chance to drop each time you kill him... and a 15% chance to drop lame gloves that he seemingly dropped 90% of the time. :p
I would propose the following for Progeny:
Traits
As a confirmed altoholic I have no problems with the Progeny system involving the creation of new characters. But many people do prefer sticking to one character and I have said consistantly from my first post on the topic that one shouldn't have to retire or delete the high level character in order to benefit from the system.
I share the almost universal feeling that no character should be able to play more than one role - no dual classing or multiclassing here please.
So how can Progeny benefit a one-character player?
Perhaps Progenization can permit one or more of the following.
1. Start over in the same class but in a different race. Maybe even a race that cannot normally be that class. Optional - you may do this when you restart but you do not have to.
2. Start over in the same class but a different sex. Optional.
3. Bonus to one or more attributes - either immediate boost or boost after regaining original level. So if Fred is a warrior with a strength of 20 at level-cap maybe after regaining level-cap Fred can have a strength of 22.
4. Bonus to one or more skills, perception being a prime candidate for this. Similar to attribute bonus in concept.
5. Give the ability to do something a different class can do that does not, repeat *not* blur role lines. Use of different weapon. Use of different armor (may be too powerful). Use of non-combat class skill (but not an important one like summoning). Use of a new buff that does not permit the character to play a different role.
There seems to be a little confusion about what the system I talked about was all about.
It has absolutely nothing to do with changing the pace of the game or limiting player interaction.
If for example, you maxed out Rogue and switched to Enchanter it would take the exact same amount of time to level up to max as a fresh characters. You would still have to start at early zones, and work your way through the content just as exactly as any other character.
I always have had a main. The one toon I log in with, farm with, craft with, and raid with. I have always used my surname as a means to be identified on any charector I play. I did not persay like playing alternates but it did become very helpful by learning the class abilities and roles so I was a better informed raid leader. Also everquest made it a requirement later on to play specific classes specifically for unique tradeskills. Raid poisons craft by rogues only or potions a shaman only skill. Everquest later on had a pretty cool system invoked to allow variety. They had monster missions where you played as enemies of a dungeon. Example was giants in nagafan's lair. The monsters were lvl appropriate for the dungeon. This allowed people of varied equipment lvl to group together. The missions also raised or lowered your lvl for that mission. So actual lvl did not matter but group integrity was still maintains. The enemies had different classes so as a warrior you could play cleric giant.. or as a enc play a tank while inside the mission. Most of the classes had only one of its kind off selection list. Eg one tank class, one healer class, a enc and varied dps classes. This kind of system was pretty darn cool IMO.
So, I chatted with 1AD7 this morning about this some, and feel like I should repeat some of what I said to him here :)
First - Progeny, as a system, is trying to figure out a way to solve a problem that happens to almost every level-based game as they get older. That problem is that as more and more players are pooled at the high end of the progression, it gets tougher and tougher for low level players to find groups, get started crafting, or even participate in the economy at all. It might take months or it might take years, depending on the game, but it eventually happens. This plays a big part in leading ot mudflation, where content keeps getting added at the top end, making players more and more powerful, and making lower level content obsolete.
There's a knock-on effect as well. Players who run out of things to do tend to cancel their subscriptions. So, the basic idea behind progeny as it's defined currently was "encourage people to try alts, so that there's more people playing at lower levels and so there's less chance of people cancelling their subs between expansions."
Second - I think there are three broad groups of people that play MMOs: People that will have alts regardless of whether there's an incentive or not, people that really just want to have one character and aren't really interested in alts regardless of the incentive, and people that might want to play an alt sometimes but don't want to take the time away from progressing their main to do it.
I don't think it's possible to design a single system that addresses the problems progeny is trying to solve AND that works for all three groups of players.
BUT, I think it's entirely feasible to set up multiple systems that work together to encourage players to play the way they like best, and also work to prevent the game from becoming top heavy.
With that said, here is what I would do if it were me:
1) A "Progeny" system that lets you create an alt as a "family" member, and pass some minor bonus on to that character in some way. This would be for people who were already going to make alts anyway and be an incentive for people on the fence about it.
2) A "Reincarnation" system that allows you to take your max-level character and roll into a new race/class, with some benefits (like nonstandard race/class combinations). I might even go so far as to include a *very* limited multiclass function - like you can take one specific ability from your old class with you.
3) A mentoring system that does exactly what it's supposed to, and doesn't result in overpowering characters whether they're the mentor or the mentee.
4) Content design that, as much as makes sense, insures that those level capped players are playing in the same parts of the world as everyone else.
5) Meta-content that requires players of all level ranges to work together. The example I use is building a guild hall in Vanguard, where there was so much stuff you needed to collect that it would have taken weeks of concentrated effort for a single high level player to do it all on their own, but your low level members could easily help with a lot of it, freeing your high level folks up to focus on the high level stuff.
I feel like these five things, working together, would potentially help to keep the game from becoming top-heavy, keep things friendly for new players, and serve to keep the economy healthy at all levels of play. Just doing one or two of them? Not so much.
Jhey said:So Progeny Sysem is pretty great for those who like to roll fresh characer of min-max for certain classes.
I feel a little left out though. I really enjoy sticking with one character and kind of establishing myself.
I propose a system to work along side the Progeny System... let's call it the err... Veteran System.
After hitting level cap you can choose to start back at level 1 with another applicable class. No extra stats or perks from the Progeny System, but you now have the ability to switch classes at your home/safe haven/etc. This way, those of us who want to stick with one character can keep making progress.
Yes, I totally ripped this off from FFXI.
Jhey, I understand what you are proposing but this is simply not a feature that would be in the game. I propose the same idea about a year ago and met the same resistance, it just is what it is.
Grimix said:Jhey, I understand what you are proposing but this is simply not a feature that would be in the game. I propose the same idea about a year ago and met the same resistance, it just is what it is.
I'm going to share a list of the various design goals that have been associated with progeny, and then respond with why I think my proposal could help them be realized. I do agree with Nephele in saying that these goals should be attacked from multiple fronts and would fully support the idea of other systems being implemented that can compliment the overall strategy. My opinion is that progeny can be used to harness a very specific demographic of player, and that is the player who would prefer to focus exclusively on their main. This type of player would be willing to re-level multiple times as long as the effort to do so contributes to the growth of their main character. The best way that can be achieved, in my opinion, is to allow a toggle between Parent/Progeny so that players can be flexible with how they spend their time playing the game.
Here is a quote from Brad detailing the purpose behind the system:
"We have to first go back to the purpose for such a system -- one of its primary goals is to reward a player who has leveled up a character to max level by encouraging him to create alts and experience the game again, albeit from a different perspective, and ideally in such a way that feels different and new enough that it’s a lot of fun. It's about replayability. It's also about pride -- you could adventure with your augmented alts and people would recognize that you were someone who has already achieved great things in Pantheon. And I think these are great goals -- recognizing and rewarding long time players while also giving them reason to keep playing can't be a bad thing." ( https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3949/progeny-tweak )
I feel that what I proposed would capture this philosophy in a very meaningful way. I would be able to start a progeny character with new race/class combinations unlocked while also being recognized as someone who has achieved great things in the game. There would be a variety of shared attributes between the parent/progeny, including: Name, faction, completed quests, access keys, languages, harvesting skills, mounts, bank space, bind location, inventory, currency, mail, friends list, outpost, housing, and lockout timers. Many of these could contribute toward the "prestige" factor. Being able to toggle back and forth would allow the "main-focused" players to enjoy the replayability of leveling up additional classes while exploring new areas/content on a level appropriate character.
Furthermore, I feel the traits I proposed could be aligned with the following comment by Brad:
"And the last big question that keeps coming up is 'just what are these augmentations, these advantages?' And will they create an imbalance? Will these alts be crazy powerful and damage the balance and fun of the lower level game? Well, that's the easiest one to answer: no, of course we couldn't let that happen. I'm confident that whatever these advantages might be that they could be measurably beneficial, truly noticeable, yet not so powerful that balance is harmed or that nobody will want to group with regular characters."
I would assume that racial passives/abilities will already have the burden of being balanced into the game while operating under the above pretense. I feel it makes sense, then, to use those same racial distinctions as a baseline for the progeny augmentations. Without knowing what the racial passives are going to be, it's impossible to tell. That said, I think we can reasonably assume that they will be measurably beneficial, truly noticeable, yet not so powerful that balance is harmed or that nobody will want to group with non-meta class/race characters. There would probably have to be a cap on how many racial bonuses any single character can have and that allows players to create their own custom racial hierarchy based upon their preferred playstyle.
Here are some of the design goals associated with progeny:
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
- It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
- Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system. ( https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3056/the-progeny-system-what-say-you/view/page/12 )
Looking at all of the above objectively, I feel confident that a parent/progeny toggle would be aligned with the goals that have been stated. There is a sizeable chunk of the playerbase that prefers to focus on their main character, and the toggle would allow them the ability to experience all that the game has to offer without having to sacrice their main. I feel it's incredibly important that players can go back and explore the starting areas of other races in order to familiarize themselves with their lore and culture. It's also important that players can do this in a level-appropriate environment. Folks who roll alts have always been able to do this while those who focus on their mains tend to ignore it whenever the content is trivialized due to being higher level. Some players are completionists and will do it anyway but it never feels truly satisfying if there is no challenge factor present during the process.
For all intents and purposes, progeny would be a success if it encourages the "main-focused" players to participate. These are the players who are generally congested near end-game content and do nothing to contribute to any of the various goals outlined above. They would be veteran players that help keep the lower-mid level zones populated, stimulate the lower-mid crafting/harvesting spheres, and ultimately enjoy more of the content that is hand-crafted for this game ... and that should help keep them subscribed. Allowing veteran players to interact with new players is pure magic in an MMO and there are loads of them that would be willing to help facilitiate that magic if you just give them a reason to do so. Rather than seeing your "main-focused" players get bored with bottlenecked end-game content, give them a reason to continue playing. There are so many wonderful relationships that can blossom from this type of interaction but very few games have ever been able to capture it in a meaningful way.
My thoughts on progeny have always been consistent but I recently decided to add a new layer to it which was the inclusion of the shaman class. This was inspired by the recent class reveals and the player interdependence that was observed with some of the epic abilities. The class description for shamans certainly played a large role as well. I like the idea of shamans being able to unlock abilities (Progeny / Rites of Passage) that allow players to both participate in progeny and then ultimately merge their characters for bonuses. Allowing players to be involved in that process would feel really special and would serve as an amazing incentive for players to interact with each other. (Shaman Shrines could also become interesting gathering points depending on where they are placed.) I try to imagine a scenario where I want to help my shaman friends unlock these abilities and it feels like a great foundation for an epic quest. I try to imagine a scenario where someone gets to max level and wants to participate in progeny but realizes that they need the help of a shaman ... but not just any shaman, an epic one ... and that feels like magic.
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).
Not sure why 'retire' is written like that, but my only issue with Progeny is this: game comes out, you get lev 50 (max level) and you raid til you are geared about as well as you can get, and you are getting bored so you decide; "ok, i've done it all, seen it all, instead of tanking, I am going to 'retire' my warrior and make a wizard under Progeny"
Great, you do it and you make it to lev 35 and boom and expansion drops and now you can go to lev 65. So now, instead of getting to Do that content, you have to level from 35 to 65 to experience it.
You 'retired' the other chracter, so it's no longer an option to pull it back out and pick up from 50, and go to 65. or at least, that would be MY understanding.
I could have sworn that I saw some talk on this and Brad said it would be a permanent retire. what if you get that wizard to lev 20 and hate it? does your bonus then transfer to another toon?
Can you Progeny a lev 20 that was once a lev 50 that already once used the Progeny system???
WAAAAAAAYYYYYY too many unknowns in this system to know if it's good, bad or indifferent.
Just seems to me, there is an easy way to do Progeny without having to retire anything. SWTOR used a "Family" tree and you "bought" bonuses with AA exp (sort of)
oneADseven said:
Here are some of the design goals associated with progeny:
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
- It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
- Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system. ( https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3056/the-progeny-system-what-say-you/view/page/12 )
The job system in FFXI accomplishes every single one of these goals as well.
Even in private servers to this day (that still carry the old school philosophy of the game) level up grounds for all ranges are heavy populated.
For me, the Progeny System doesn't work mostly because of role-playing reasons. I don't want to "retire" my character. If they could just offer those benefits to me without having to go through the process of rerolling I would be happy.
I didn't mention it in this thread but my experience in FFXI has always been used as a reference point on how I would like to see progeny play out. It makes too much sense. As you said, Jhey, the XI sub-class system accomplished every single one of those goals. That said, I don't think we'll see multi-classing in Pantheon. Multi-racing, however, might be doable, and it might be enough to inspire people to participate in the system. I think a parent/progeny toggle could function very similarly to how the FFXI system worked.
Mordecai said: Then roll an alt? Nobody is forced to use the system. It will be a choice. There is going to be incentives, we don’t have specifics. Best to wait and see than to speculate and gain an ulcer
The problem is that there is a clear benfit to rerolling. If it was just some shiny badge on your status screen I wouldn't care at all.
oneADseven said:I didn't mention it in this thread but my experience in FFXI has always been used as a reference point on how I would like to see progeny play out. It makes too much sense. As you said, Jhey, the XI sub-class system accomplished every single one of those goals. That said, I don't think we'll see multi-classing in Pantheon. Multi-racing, however, might be doable, and it might be enough to inspire people to participate in the system. I think a parent/progeny toggle could function very similarly to how the FFXI system worked.
I'm not talking about the subjob system. The hole game would have to be built from the ground up to suppor that concept. But being able to level up another class on the same character definitely fits with the philosophy of keeping all areas of the game relevant for a very long time.
Deleting a max level character would have to require a fairly substantial bonus to make it valuable. +5 to stats or small % exp gains is not worth it. If it was something like +1 to all skill caps at every level, +10% hp/mana regen, and higher soft / hard caps, I would do it for min/maxing. Or an impresive ability only available to a progeny.